Saturday, August 5


Psalms 139:13-16 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Abortion is the killing of human life in its mother’s womb. It is not part of the woman’s body, and a short time after conception it has its own heartbeat and circulatory system. To justify abortion under the pretense of a right to privacy defies logic in that it justifies killing as a privacy right. Who can forget the photo of the 21 week (after conception) old baby that was operated on in its mother’s womb? The photo shows a tiny hand holding on tightly to a doctor’s finger and is a devastating indictment of the abortion culture. Not many people have seen this photo due to the liberal pro-choice leaning of the main stream media which ignored it and even directed one journalist not to show it. This particular journalist resigned over the censorship. This photo can be easily found on the internet. Most liberal political leaders overwhelmingly supports abortion, including the ghastly partial birth abortion procedure which kills a baby that is partially born. The most recent president (Bill Clinton) vetoed the bill banning this procedure. President George Bush finally signed the law after he took office. When John Kerry made the statement that he wants abortion to be, legal, safe, available, and rare, it was obvious that he realized it is wrong. Why should it be rare if nothing is wrong with it? It certainly has not been rare as millions of abortions have been performed since it became legal. While God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass, he is not the author of the sin. He has given people free will and allows them to sin, including the sin of abortion… This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live (Deuteronomy 30:19).


Terry S said...


I don't believe that proponents of the right to have an abortion think that it's "all right." In a more perfect world abortion would, in fact, be rare.

But again, most christians oppose any kind of birth control. Even the use of condoms is opposed by many. Many believe that procreation is the ONLY purpose for sexual intercourse. The notion that ANY pleasure might come from coupling is abhorant to some.

The fact is, that sex is fun. It is the height of pleasure between consenting adults. Most of the time, creating new life is the farthest thing from their minds.

Millions of people throughout the world live in abject poverty and have little, if any, formal education. Intercourse may be the only form of physical pleasure these people enjoy. That they should be denied even this on the grounds that it is a sin is preposterous.

Abortions kill thousands of fetuses each year. It is not pleasant. But the killing of what is usually little more than a zygote, not a person, by any definition I recognize, is preferable to giving birth to unwanted children, often into destitute families. I don't see thousands of monied religious conservatives lining up to take these newborns into their lives, or otherwise providing adequate care for them.

It is, in my opinion, not people PLAYING god. Rather, as I don't believe in the existence of god, it is people exercising self determination.

It should be noted that an abortion is not a pleasant experience for the mother, either. It is a painful process, both physically and emotionally. Most women do not make the decision lightly. Of course, there are always some who abuse the privilege, just as there are welfare cheaters, and just as there have been crooks in the White House.

But, if the full range of contraception devices, pills, etc. were readily and inexpensively available to all, there would likely be far fewer abortion procedures done, and far fewer unwanted children born to inept parents.


jazzycat said...

Terry said.......
I don't believe that proponents of the right to have an abortion think that it's "all right." In a more perfect world abortion would, in fact, be rare.
It is certainly not rare with numbers into tens of millions.

Abortions kill thousands of fetuses each year. It is not pleasant. But the killing of what is usually little more than a zygote, not a person, by any definition I recognize, is preferable to giving birth to unwanted children, often into destitute families.

Thousands a year???? Try a million or so. I have seen the photo of the 'zygote' that I mention in this Photo Meditation holding on to the Doctor's finger. Look it up on google, it is really touching.

How do you feel about abortion being used for sex selection of family planning (aborting females when a boy is desired, etc.)?

But again, most christians oppose any kind of birth control.

Let's stick to facts please. Even with catholics, it is the clergy and not most of the members.


Terry S said...


So, do we really want all those millions of unwanted babies? In India contraception or abortions are very difficult to obtain. It is estimated that by 2020 or so, India will overtake China as the most populous country in the world, yet India is only a fraction of the size of China.

If you believe that the US welfare roles are burgeoning now, should abortion be eliminated as a possibility, what kind of burden might that place on the system?

Abortion for sex selection? Well, that is not a particularly attractive practice. Of course there are places where new born babies are put in sacks and drowned if they happen to be females.

Technology is at a point where sex selection may soon be made at conception. I don't know if that's a good thing either, but technological developments which are in the offing, may well render a # of such arguments moot.

In this regard, the christians who count are members of our federal government who have disallowed foreign aid to countries in desparate need of financial and medical help owing to AIDs and other epidemics if they even mention contraception, abortion, etc. How many people have been infected with AIDS because condoms were not available? How many children are born with AIDS and other debilitating diseases owing to the lack of available sex education, pre-natal care, etc., because american dollars were witheld?

It's true that with respect to contraception and abortion, many people talk the talk, but don't actually walk the walk. But, knowing catholics as I do, that comes with a whole helping of guilt which is the meat and potatos of catholicism.

The fact that less conservative christians are less strict in their views and actions regarding contraception and abortion, tells me that they are simply more in touch with the reality and enormity of the situation.

Again, few if anyone runs out to get an abortion because its a good time. This whole situation is largely the result of all of the conflicting information and views regarding sex and its consequences in this country. No where else in the world do they have the numbers of pedophiles and other sex offenders that we seem to nurture here in the good ole US of A. While there are places around the world where young girls are sold into slavery primarily for sex, investigators have found that a significant number of the buyers are Americans.

Psychologists, psychiatrists, and sociologists have long believed that the great number of people who have significant problems regarding sex in the US is caused largely by how repressive parents, the government and the clergy have responded historically when dealing with sexual matters. It goes back to the "puritan ethic" as regards personal morality and behavior.

I suppose much of the above amounts to a digression, but it is all connected one way or another.

Think of how repressive places like Afghanistan - especially under the Taliban, Iran, Iraq and other muslim countries are or have been. Yet,I have read of horrendous things done of a sexual nature to women, and even to captive male soldiers by these supposedly godly people. (In this regard take a look at the book "Charlie Wilson's War" by George Crile concerning Congressman Charlie Wilson's extraordinary efforts and the resultant CIA involvement on behalf of Afghanistan in its efforts to dislodge the Soviets in the 1980s. It's a real eye opener.


jazzycat said...

You have touched on several subjects and have basically given liberal thinking on them all. I believe as you may expect that the liberal solution to most problems are wrong. You did pretty much disprove a PC liberal view that is wrong not only from a Biblical standpoint, but also from an empirical standpoint. The false view that man is born "basically good" is refuted very well by the following statement of yours.....

No where else in the world do they have the numbers of pedophiles and other sex offenders that we seem to nurture here in the good ole US of A.

In spite of about 50 years worth of our culture increasing sexual freedom and becoming less and less represive, we are seeing an increase in sex offenders. Abortion on demand, pornography, increase in sexual attire (even to small children), crude sexual behavior on television and movies, promotion of homosexual behavior have all led to all kinds of problems with sexual offenders. Maybe sexual repression and control wasn't so bad after all.

I know your feelings about blaming religion for everything, but I think you should consider that perhaps a lot of serious problems are getting worse because of this continuing trend of moral decline in the USA.

Think about it....


Terry S said...


I don't blame religion for EVERYTHING. Greed, lust for power, bigotry, ignorance, etc. all hold a place of honor as well.

I don't know that I believe that people are "bascally good." Nor do I believe that we are inherently bad. No original sin.

We are, I believe, born morally neutral. We make no value judgements. We are totally self-involved with moment to moment survival.

Only as we grow and become aware of the world around us do we begin to think outside the box of our own existence. While certainly aspects of heredity, and the development of physical and/or mental disorders can affect how we perceive and process what we learn, most of our values, our morality, comes through our environment as we grow and experience life.

I don't agree that my statement regarding the higher levels of sexual deviate conduct in the US proves your point.

Look at Europe. Europeans in general have a far more laid back view of sexuality than Americans. There is more explicit sex to be seen on European TV, movies, magazines, etc., than here. Yet they do not have the incidents of rape, pedophilia, and other "deviate" conduct that is experienced in the US. AND it should be noted that attendance at church in much of Europe is only a fraction of what it is here. The catholic church still holds sway over much of Europe, but the greater majority of Europeans are much more casual about religion than most people in the US. Most still profess a belief in god, but there are greater numbers of athiests, agnostics, humanists or secularists - by whatever name -than here.

Some of the most heinous crimes - sexual or serial murder, etc. - that have been committed in this country have been carried out by individuals who grew up in very religious and repressive households, and/or communities.
There is nothing quite so enticing than that which is denied to you.

We just returned from Florida late last nite. Something I discovered about the south: It's hot! Muggy and hot. Good looking palm trees, though.


Terry S said...

Oh, yeah.

Something I meant to mention. I love the photo of that old house above in your "Heaven" entry. I can't say what it is about it, but I just like it.


Jerry Grace said...

Jazzy Cat

Terry S said: our morality, comes through our environment as we grow and experience life.

Society can only function when there is a common view of morality providing an agreed upon structure of acceptable and nonacceptable human behavior. A common statement and misconception is that society cannot legislate "morality." We've been doing so for thousands of years, whether it was the one defined by a despot or one where some external source such as the Bible or the Koran was used.

At issue here is exactly the same thing, legislating morality on the other end of the spectrum away from in America's case the Christian world view of our founders and for 175 years or so their successors. An outgrowth of our constitution and bill of rights was the freest society ever conceived, and the most prosperous. Perhaps ironic is the fact that one of those concepts "freedom from religion" served the promotion of religion as a matter of free choice better than any form of government anywhere. But those same authors in no way excluded God from an integral role readily accepting and codifying the boundaries of our society from a Christian perspective. It is that environment that has fostered the freedom that provides the opportunity for dissent without concern.

I certainly have no problems with providing contraceptives to people, so long as they are not in pursuit of permissiveness. But that very statement deals society yet another fatal blow. The vast amount of abortions are the result of breaking other codes of moral conduct. Where does it stop?

A free society cannot exist without a code of moral conduct. I'd rather live in total freedom following the morals defined by a just and loving God who has proven his every word was for our benefit and well being, than the morals as defined by a despot changed to suit the whims of the moment.

It is true that much stupidity and repressiveness has occurred for reasons of control of others under the guise of religion. An examination of everyone of those situations will reveal an environment absent of love, something totally foreign to the only two commandments Jesus gave, love God, and love others as yourself. With those powerful modifiers of behavior, there is no excuse for the terrible deeds done in the name of religion.

The absolutes of God are the greatest source of freedom past and present. Those who are in favor of abortion wish to exclude it from "thou shalt not kill" but at the same moment claim it to protect every other area of their life and the freedom they know. The definition of what that commandment means has served society well when universally applied, but the loosening of its absolute value has produced monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein. Given a choice between the absolutes of God which binds us to morals totally for our good and those as defined by the men named, I have no doubt and neither do you of which they would choose.

I'm the smartest guy I know, a Christian happy with that choice from generations of ancestors who were as well. My wife and son are in Christian vocations. By any persons standards of what one can know about another, my life's resume is impeccable modified by love and a moral compass defined by the very Character of God. But none of you want me to define the rules by which all of us live; the secret rooms in my heart know what terrible things I might do in the name of self interest.

jazzycat said...

Terry and Jerry,

Jerry made the following excellent point….
A free society cannot exist without a code of moral conduct. I'd rather live in total freedom following the morals defined by a just and loving God who has proven his every word was for our benefit and well being, than the morals as defined by a despot changed to suit the whims of the moment.

The late Christian philosopher Frances Schaeffer made this same point when he said that society without a foundation built on rock will ultimately crumble. In Jerry’s comment he made the point that all the freedoms that Terry enjoys were built on a moral absolute base. That is a solid rock foundation. Terry since you like to read, I would challenge you to look into some of the writings of Frances Schaeffer who died about 15 or so years ago. He accurately predicted a lot of the things that are happening in the U.S. today. When government policy is based on the whims and social needs of the moment rather than an absolute moral foundation, anything is ultimately possible. When personal policy preferences trump the rule of law, anything is ultimately possible. When senators are concerned about a judge’s personal policy preference instead of his faithfulness to interpreting the constitution, anything is possible.


Terry S said...

Jazzy & Jerry,

Jazzy and I have bantered back and forth about much of the above over the last several months.

At the core of our differences is Jazzy's belief in god, and my lack of such belief. It goes beyond concepts of being "liberal" or "conservative."

Both of you make intelligent and effective arguments in defense of your vision. While I don't share your belief in god, I have no right to deny you your chosen path. I would not presume to do so, even if I had the ability. Such rights are, in a nutshell, the very basis of this country.

Yes, it is true that morality has been both defined and enforced by the "state" in whatever form for thousands of years. Most often such definition and enforcement have been narrowly defined, repressive and enforced largely through violence or its threat. Abuses of power in this regard have been, and, in many instances, continue to be rampant as most such "definitions" were established to maintain the interests of those in power.

You have decided what constitutes morality for yourself. However, such definitions are not consistent throughout the world. There is a presumption on your part that what you perceive to be immoral should apply to all. And you would support legislation in its enforcement.

You also seem to assume that anyone who is of a liberal bent, is by definition immoral, and/or not properly "christian," and are, therefore, damned.

Yet billions of people all around the world would not agree with you. Those of other faiths, even other "christian" faiths are just as certain of their site as you. Likewise, those who reject the possibility of god, myself included, are also equally convinced of our position. We do not accept the "absolutes of god."

As I see it, there is little concerning human behavior which can be defined as absolute. As I have stated, I believe that man is, as far as we know, the pinnacle of sentient beings. While there may be more advanced civilizations elsewhere in the universe, unless and until some kind of contact is made with such beings, we humans are IT.

We are capable of both great heights and abysmal lows. We have created great art, great civilizations, incredible technological advances, and sadly, at the same time we are responsible for the Spanish Inquisition, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Jeffrey Daumer, and Paris Hilton. It is our responsibility to ourselves and our progeny to rid this world of the latter set and their like.

So long as we maintain ANY type of divisions between human beings, be it racial, cultural, national, or religious, there will continue to be misunderstanding, suspicion and discord often culminating in hatred and violence.

Religion is, perhaps the most divisive all of the above. Being a part of any defined group, and especially a religious group, has the effect of separation. It says that "our group is better than yours. We are the chosen. The rest of you are lost." To my mind, that is the most audacious of insults.

As to Jerry's concern regarding "the secret rooms of [his} heart know[ing] the terrible things [he] might do in the name of self interest," I find disingenuous. The unflinching goal of getting into heaven is the ultimate in "self-interest." It governs his every thought and act.

Also, I don't believe there is any mention anywhere in the Constitution or elsewhere in federal, state or local legislation, that I know of, which references "freedom FROM religion." I believe the preposition used is "OF," a very different concept.


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